65 cutlass smoking -->PVC valve?

65Cutlass

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
16
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
Hey folks,

I've got a 65 cutlass convertible with the 330 V8, and it's been sitting for about six months while I got around to replacing the carb fuel filter, the water pump and the master cylinder.

Now that I've done that, it stalls as I'm coming to a stop, and the engine block has smoke coming out of every conceivable pore after just a few minutes of driving. I can solve the stall problem (for the most part) by disconnecting the breather hose between the air filter snorkle and the valve cover--it was pouring the smoke right back into the carb. But it still smokes horribly, so I figure it wants a PCV valve.

So where is it? The shop manual only references it obliquely. I know that in some cars you have to take off the valve cover (the one opposite the breather hose side) to get at it, but that's no minor endeavor considering all the other things that have to come out in order for that to happen--I'd like to make sure I'm on the right track.

So,
1) Does this sounds like a PCV valve? (Although hell, it probably needs a new one anyway) and
2) If so, where is that bad boy?

Much obliged,

Aram
 

65Cutlass

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
16
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
All right, well, I'm not sure what I was expecting to find under there, but I took off the valve cover (driver's side) and found, well, the valves. No PCV. While doing this, I noticed that there's a hose coming out of the back of the carb (the 4GC model) that's connected to absolutely nothing. Just kinda floppin' around. It seems to be an air intake, but the shop manual, for all its detail, doesn't diagram it, or mention the PCV system in relation to the carb at all. (Is there a good third-party manual for this car? The shop manual makes me want to scream.)

On the valve cover there's a rubber seal plugging the hole in the middle (the analogous hole to the one on the passenger side where the crankcase air filter goes.)

Also, the shop manual mentions removing the PCV valve BEFORE removing the valve cover, which would suggest that it's supposed to, you know, BE there.

Did the guy I bought this from just plug this hole and leave that hose flopping around rather than replace the PCV valve and whatever it seats in? Am I completely off track here? Is this what's causing the smoking and low-rev stalling to begin with?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

Aram
 

65Cutlass

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
16
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
OK, update number 2. My buddy who is smarter than me says with some certainty that what I had taken to be the crankcase airfilter and breather tube (off the passenger side valve cover to the air filter snorkle) is in fact the PCV valve (though this doesn't exactly match the parts that Kragen gave me or in fact most pictures I've seen of a PCV valve. Maybe the PCV valve goes in this thing somehow?)

Plugged though that may be, he thinks it's gunk in the carb from when I replaced the fuel filter. He also recommends a compression test just to rule out anything serious in the block.

Man, I don't know what to think anymore.
 

jacke chilson

New member
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
375
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
68
Location
rochester ny
How many miles on engine ? Excessive smoke could be caused by damaged valves that are worn or burnt as to not seat correctly and cause blow by of exhaust gas. A compression test will tell you if the engine is healthy. if the engine has lots of miles or was not properly cared for the piston rings may be worn out and could cause problems with blow by. And a faulty improperly installed pcv system will cause all sorts of gremlins. Let us know what you find out good luck with it.
 

Rocketguy

Active member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
1,166
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Location
Southeast Michigan
Wanna Be PCV

Hello 65cutlass,

'64 and 65 had a very bad deal for a PCV valve. It was a kind of a breather that doubled as a PCV valve. Yes it does go into the grommet on the valve cover, and a steel tube goes from it up to your air cleaner, and yes a vacuum line goes to it as well, probably the stray one you mentioned. To make matters worse the grommet that goes in the air cleaner to hold the tube is usually disintegrated by now and I have not seen one single establishment reproducing them. Good ones or NOS ones are rare as hens teeth! I was lucky to find a very good original one somewhere. From what you have said your breather/PCV is missing all together and you have a plug in the valve cover.

I am not sure that just installing the correct parts and hooking them up will solve your problems becuase it sounds like you may be getting excessive crankcase fumes for some reason, possibly blow by or ???

If you send me an email at ricorn6@aol.com I will send you a picture of my wanna be PCV.

Good luck dude! You have a very nice car. How about some picutres? :eek:
 

65Cutlass

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
16
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
The odo shows 85k, but it hasn't been clicking over since I got it, so who knows.

The attached pictures show the engine bay w/o the air filter (note plug on the right valve cover and oddball thingy on the left--that's the side that the snorkle goes to), and a closeup of the part that Rocketguy is talking about. And a glamor shot from slightly happier days.

Rocketguy, I'm emailing you right now (and I'm aramcre@yahoo.com in case anyone else has anything to share.)

Thanks, I'll keep y'all updated.

Aram
 

Attachments

  • 65olds.jpg
    65olds.jpg
    47 KB · Views: 9
  • PCVwhatchamajiggy.jpg
    PCVwhatchamajiggy.jpg
    82.1 KB · Views: 13
  • bay.jpg
    bay.jpg
    44 KB · Views: 14

joe_padavano

New member
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
120
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
63
Location
Northern VA
OK, the item on the passenger side valve cover is a breather and the pipe should go to the air cleaner housing or snorkle. This allows fresh air into the crankcase to help purge vapors. The plug on the driver side valve cover should be a rubber grommet that the PCV valve fits into. The other end of the valve goes to the rubber hose that connects to the base of the carb. This acts as the suction that purges the crankcase and draws the fumes into the intake so they are burned (as opposed to being vented to the atmosphere). The design you have is the "closed system" in this figure:

http://www.sweethaven02.com/Automotive01/fig0452.gif

The PCV grommet you need for the driver side valve cover is this one:

http://www.dormanproducts.com/cgi-b...m=&prev=no&vnext=yes&category_list=1364:928:0

By the way, nice looking 65.
 

65Cutlass

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
16
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
So I seem to be hearing conflicting advice here--on one hand, that the PCV valve is integrated with the breather tube on the passenger side, and on the other that the PCV valve is on the driver's side valve cover. I've looked all over, and I can't seem to find anything canonical on this.

FWIW, the two spark plugs that I've looked at seem (to my inexperienced eyes) to be carbon fouled. I'm going to do a compression test tomorrow.

Remember, even the worst situation is an excuse to buy new tools,

Aram
 

Rocketguy

Active member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
1,166
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Location
Southeast Michigan
Wanna Be PCV

Aram,
Man your car really looks sweet!

Joe,
I was really glad to see that you showed up on this site! I have learned a lot from you over the years and I don't even know you, but I have enjoyed your input on several website forums. Welcome! I hope to meet you some day at a National meet or something.

I have seen two set ups for the '65 crankcase vent system. I described one, and Joe described the other. I do not know if it was a production change late in the year or what, but from my observation, both mine and Joe's post are correct.

I think the earlier '65s had the system that Aram's convertible and my car have. The build date on my car is third week of June, '65 so they used the first system for at least more than half way through the model year. The system that Aram and I have uses a closed valve cover on the drives side: There is no hole in it at all. Then the passenger side has the breather/pcv valve with the vacuum line going to it and the steel tube going up to the air cleaner.

The later '65s (this is my guess) had the system Joe describes which was the same up until at least the '90s. It has a grommet in both valve covers. A large vacuum line connects a "click type" PCV to the drivers side valve cover and a breather pushes into the passenger side valve cover. I can't remember if this style breather used a tube that went up to the air cleaner or not. I think the Rochester 4GC was different between the 2 systems as well because it used a different base plate for the different size vacuum ports.

It would be easty to conclude that when the PCV valve was opened the first design would channel into the carburator only the gasses that blew into the crankcase from inside the engine, where the second design would provide fresh air to flow into the engine through the push in breather and through the crank case. The first design probably resulted in a sludged up crankcase and poorly designed PCV valve due to lack of ventilation so they updated it.

Help us out with your thoughts Joe!

Aram, from the pictures you have I think you have the correct set up for the early design. It looks like you need to plug in the PCV valve, hook up the vacuum line, hook up tube up to your air cleaner, and the system should function as intended. But, weather or not that solves all of your probems I do not know but I hope so :)

Now, about the plug in your drivers side valve cover. 1964 and 1965 used different valve covers than '66 and up. The '65s had a concave section to them on the top running from front to rear. The '66 and up covers were flat on top. This is possibly because of the different rockers used in '66 and up cars. Anyway, it is a bit hard to tell but by the pictures Aram posted it looks like his car has the correct valve covers. I have 3 guesses for the rubber plug in the hole on the drives side:

1. It is a correct cover but for the later system that a previous owner installed, and they put the plug in the hole.

2. The covers are symetrical. The assembly plant could have run short of the valve cover for the drivers side with no hole and they just installed a pass side cover on the drivers side and used the plug.

3. The "undressed" engine assembly was manufactured for the later style PCV and put into the assembly line. Then when it came time to "dress" the engine on the assmembly line they were using up the last of the old style PVC systems and just plugged the D side hole.

Good Luck Aram ;)
 

65Cutlass

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
16
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
Another update:

First of all, thanks to all for their help so far.

So I'm not having any luck with finding the odd PCV valve (all the parts places just shake their heads a bunch), but while it's clearly gunked up, it's also not what's causing the smoking, so I'm thinking I'll probably just soak it real good, get the gunk out so it loosens up and stick it back on. (Unless anyone knows a good place I can get one.)

I did a compression test, and all the cylinders read between 150-160. All the plugs are pretty fouled (like I said, to my amateur eyes it looks like carbon fouling--soft black soot all over).

So is this all just a rich mixture problem? I've never really played around inside a carb before. Mine's the Rochester 4GC. It's not a dirty air filter, since it smokes even with the whole air cleaner housing off. The choke isn't sticking--in fact, I could hold it wide open and it still smokes. Suggestions?

Thanks,

Aram
 

65Cutlass

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
16
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
Update:

I changed the oil and leaned the mixture out on the carb, and it runs slightly better--what smoke there is at idle is little enough that the vacuum hose sucks it back into the carb. It still smokes plenty when I tug on the throttle.

I did manage to clean out the PCV valve--just soaked it in mineral spirits. It now flaps freely.

So...can you guys give me any ideas as to what might be causing the smoke? Any theories are appreciated.

Thanks,

Aram
 

jacke chilson

New member
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
375
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
68
Location
rochester ny
Well you got me mystified on this one sounds like a blow by condition but you have good cylinder pressure. What did the oil look like and feel could be large sludge accumulation. How is radiator fluid any bubbles or oil in it ? Was the car timed to get it to run in the bad PVC valve condition if so timing may be off. Just some thoughts.
 

65Cutlass

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
16
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
The oil was pretty black and sludgy--for some reason I thought that the previous guy had changed it right before I got it, I guess not. No bubbles or oil in the radiator fluid that I could see; not sure about the timing.
 

jacke chilson

New member
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
375
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
68
Location
rochester ny
Pour in some marvel mystery oil run engine and change oil could get some of the sludge out. It can retain moisture and smoke like a Florida smoke pot when heated up.
 

65Cutlass

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
16
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
Hmm. So I was reading up on oil sludge and I read where white mayonaisse/yogurt looking stuff on your oil filler cap is coolant and therefore can be an indication of a blown head gasket. I'm not seeing that on the filler cap, but it was definitely in the PCV valve (along with black build up.)

I'm also seeing white smoke from the tailpipe, but other than that and the general smoking, I'm not seeing other symptoms of a blown head gasket. Like I said, the compression was good.

Also perhaps worth noting is that since I changed the oil and filter I now hear a loud knocking from underneath the block/oil pan. I gave the oil time to seep everywhere, and have run the car for 10-20 minutes since the change. The noise has subsided a little, but not much.

Thoughts?
 

65Cutlass

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
16
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
The oil had turned black again, so I changed it again. Should I keep changing it until it stops turning black right away? (I hadn't changed the oil since I got it until just now. You'd think that would be the first thing I'd have done, but you'd be wrong.)

It still smokes--kind of at idle, and really badly after I dared take it for a quick drive around the neighborhood. I bought some new spark plugs since the old ones are fouled, but I'm not sure if I should put them in--they'd just get fouled themselves, right? Bad plugs aren't causing this, are they?

Head gasket? Piston rings? Gremlins? Bueller?

In other news, the horn seems to work now, which it never had before...

Cheers,

Aram
 

jacke chilson

New member
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
375
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
68
Location
rochester ny
Yes do a general tune up plugs points condenser and check plug wires for wear. In sure all vacuum inlets on carburetor and intake manifold are used or plugged with caps. A vacuum leak will make the car run rough and use more gas. Did the knock go away ? And yes i would change the oil again you wont get all the sludge out but if the filter is full the oil system will be under strain.
 

65Cutlass

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
16
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
Cool, thanks. I'm giving it a good tune-up--I'll let you know how it goes. Yeah, the knock seems to come when I change the oil, then it hangs around for a bit and goes away.

I don't need to be changing the filter every time, do I?

Thanks,

Aram
 

Rocketguy

Active member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
1,166
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Location
Southeast Michigan
Filter This!

Definately change the oil filter every time you change your oil.

Also, before you install the new filter, fill it all the way up with new oil and then install it. This step will take a few minutes for the oil to seep past the filter media. If you don't do this, your engine sits there runnning with no oil in it until the filter fills up with oil.

Also, try to find a filter that is the tall one that holds a full quart of oil, not the short one.

Here is an archive I saved from an old forum post. It is from a man named Dave Bunch.

Here I go again. Oil filters are part of my business as a fleet maintenance manager. I Would Not use Fram, Wix, or any other brand other than the following: Lee, Amsoil, Fleet Guard, AC Delco, Purlator, or Motorcraft. Use a Fram or Wix and open it up some time and see what it Does Not filter. Good advertising by a manufacturer does not mean its a ood product! Most of the cheaper brands like Fram and Wix use low by pass valve pressures so on cold start up your oil is by passing the filter. I totally agree with Dan. As Dan stated some of the better filters are now using a check valve to hold the oil in the filter, but this is only good if your oil filter mounting is other then vertical. Early Olds blocks (350/455) do not really need this feature, as the filter hangs almost straight down. If your oil filter hangs remotely or you have a late model 4 or 6 cylinder, then this is a good benefit. My Honda oil filter is mount straight off from the side of the block and its nice to have the anti-drain back valve
when changing the oil! DAVE BUNCH
 
Top